The Mail Box

The God Makers
Still an Issue after 20 Years

Dear Ed,

My wife and I are ex-Mormons and belong to a spirit filled church in Tulsa, OK. We believe that "The God Makers" was one of the key elements that kept us in the LDS church for so long, (12 years). During that time I held leadership positions in the church and attended the temple with my wife. I want you to know that the best friend that the LDS church has is "The God Makers".

T h e information in it is so off the mark that it is laughable by church members who know very well what the church actually teaches. When you see information that is so wrong, it made us think that what we were involved in must be right. What we did not realize is that both the LDS church and Ed Decker were both wrong. I am called into the ministry and attend a Bible school at night after work. Works such as The God Makers will make it much harder for me to minister to Mormons, but I pray through the power of the Holy Spirit these lost people will see through both sources of misinformation and receive Jesus.

Sincerely,

Salvatore DeBella

We Respond

Dear Salvatore,

Hi, my name is Michelle Grim. I work w/ Mr. Decker at Saints Alive ministries by answering some of the e-mails. You stated that our information is so far off the mark that it is laughable, which is a very serious allegation to us at the ministry, especially Mr. Decker. On the day you wrote your e-mail we were celebrating our 20th anniversary of the initial showing of God Makers. Since then we have distributed over several hundred thousand videos and have witnessed so many thousands of people come to know the Lord because of it. We are certainly praising the Lord because of your salvation, however we are interested in finding out from you just exactly what you thought was 'way off the mark'. If you can show us just 2 or 3 items in the video that are wrong, we will pull the video and correct the mistakes. We have shown this video for review to the theologians from BYU and the LDS church and we received a “no comment” from both. 

Every major Christian denomination, as well as theological universities and colleges have reviewed the video and it stands unparalleled. We are committed to excellence and most of all, to truth. There is never room for anything else. We're also interested in which Bible school you attend and the name of your church so they can see the video as well. [and judge if we are what you say we are] You don't have to like the God Makers video, that's your personal opinion. However, allegations of us being untruthful are very disturbing to us at the ministry.

Looking forward to hearing back from you,

Michelle Grim
Saints Alive in Jesus Ministries

LDS latter day saints stories

I'm writing this letter in reference to the long journey my family and I have been on for the past several years in our search for God's truth. Now that we’ve found where the truth really comes from we feel it is our obligation and desire to share it with all those who will listen. My husband and I, just as many others had our doubts about the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from time to time. For each question or doubt we faithfully accepted the church's view on the matter. Strangely enough it was church literature, both former and current, that brought us to the realization that the L. D. S. church can't possibly be God's one hundred percent true church.

The Path

The process that led us away from the church was long, much longer than I first realized. There’s no way to quickly put all of my feelings concerning the church on paper that would involve many emotions and hours of time. For now I will try to be brief. About two years ago we purchased our first computer. My husband became very interested in it, how to operate it, what it could do, what you can find out about and so forth.

At some point he came across various websites such as Light House Ministries, and Saints Alive. At first he didn't tell me about his findings. Later when he did express concerns about the information he had researched I wasn't interested. I had built my entire life on the church. I couldn't imagine my life without the church.

My husband continued speaking to deaf ears on the subject of church for some time. One day he said he had found an unbiased report of how the church operates as a corporation and suggested I read it. I felt I had put him off long enough and a financial report couldn't hurt. I read it and found nothing incriminating nor overly surprising. I told him that was nothing we didn't already know. I continued to discredit or ignore any discrepancies he spoke of. We continued this way until I realized he had uncoveredsomething that had him very shaken.

The Turning Point

For the next several nights he and I searched for more information after the children were in bed. At first I cautiously studied various web sites and verses of scripture hoping I would find the "anti-Mormon" literature weak and unsubstantiated. To the contrary I couldn't find one mistake, one lie, or one hate filled accusation. Even though I wasn' t pleased with my discoveries, I could see those who had posted their stories and information had gone to great lengths to be accurate and effective. I wanted so much for the church to be true, yet the more we searched the more aware we became that we had been on the ride of a lifetime. I was stunned as my husband and I compared L. D. S. teachings to Biblical truths. We carefully read the verses listed as references and compared church approved materials with the information listed. I was devastated when I read the literature concerning the L. D. S. temples. I vividly remember being in the Atlanta temple for the first time six years earlier. It seemed more business-like than holy upon arrival and I wondered why I needed to lock my belongings away in such a heavenly place. I found the washing and anointing ceremony somewhat embarrassing and during the Endowment Session I found it so strange and unnerving I wanted to get up and run out. Instead I sat there and wondered if I were really where God wanted me to be. Then I reasoned, "It's my fault. I didn't spiritually prepare. I'm not enough 'in tune' with the spirit."

A Faithful Servant

I was telling myself exactly what I had been taught to believe. I completely discarded my feelings and followed instructions. Now with the ceremonial information written out in black and white it became very obvious why I had felt such dread in the temple. The temple wasn't the house of God at all. In all reality it was a mockery to God. I was filled with sorrow at having participated in such awful works of darkness. Life as we knew it no longer existed. If one bit of the church doctrine was untrue, mistakenly or purposely, the church as a whole was untrue. There was no way to accept some as truth, it was all or none.

At the time of these discoveries I was faithfully serving as the Primary President, a Visiting Teacher, and Achievement Day Leader. As a family we had daily prayer and scripture study and Family Home Evening each Monday. I wasn't looking to stir up trouble in my life. I was a strong and faithful m e m b e r, throughout the years I've served as Primary President (three times), Councilor in Primary (two times), Relief Society President (two times), Young Women's President (once) Achievement Day Leader, Stake Missionary, Home Management Teacher (three times). I was faithful, my husband and I had been sealed to our family. He had previously served as councilor to the Bishop (two times), Ward Mission Leader, Elders Quorum Pres., Deacons Primary teacher.

It's been more than a year since my family had our names removed from the L.D.S. church records. I've just now gotten to the point I could write this out. This has not been written in malice, I simply want to do God's will and help others do the same.

Soul Saving Information

The information posted by Ed Decker has been soul saving. I'm thankful for all those who have taken the time to give such accurate information. We are forever indebted to those Christian people who have loved and led us into the light of Christ. My husband and I were converts so we knew a bit of Christian teachings. It took me twenty-three years to see the light. We began attending a terrific Christian church (Baptist) immediately after we left the L.D.S. church and are now members of it. We've met a lot wonderful people. Our pastor and his wife have been very, very kind, patient, and helpful. Our journey has been mentally and emotionally difficult, but I wouldn't do anything different about our leaving. We did it because it was right, not easy. I pray that anyone who is seeking to know God's will and obey him will search the Bible as God's Word and not as an incomplete book. I praise God for His matchless love and mercy and I praise God He has set us free. I am very thankful that Jesus Christ loved me enough to die for my sins even though I will never be able to pay him back. How grateful I am that I don't have to earn his favor.

Respectfully yours,
name withheld

It’s Really Just One or The Other

It’s That Simple

A Letter to a Friend

Johnny,

I had hoped from the beginning that we could conduct an electronic conversation without being confrontive. At no point will I be abusive, but I will be delighted to give you my testimony and tell you why I don't believe that both of us are Christians. Jews are not Christians but I can count on several as being close friends. There are many sects that are non-Christian with whom I share friendship. My testimony is not the kind I heard on Testimony Sunday but it explains why I first became suspicious of the doctrines and practices of the LDS.

And, by the way, there was no other family with our name that had close contacts with the LDS in this area. My wife and I were baptized in the LDS Church. Later we asked that we be removed from the roles. We realized that we had made a terrible mistake, and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we rediscovered Biblical and traditional Christian truths.  I don't know why the focus is on who and what we are. There are bigger, more eternally significant factors then that.

Even when I was in priesthood lessons at the church, we were taught the LDS was the only correct church. According to the law of postulations, we must conclude that one of the following MUST be true and the remainder false:

1. Both of us are Christians.

            Impossible. While we both share an admitted love of Christ we hold totally different beliefs in the person of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, as well as heaven, hell, salvation, and a host of differing theological beliefs.

2. Your are a Christian and I am not.

The definition of a Christian is pretty cut and dried:

Funk & Wagnalls College Standard Dictionary, "Christian: noun. 1. A disciple of Jesus Christ; one whose profession and life conform to the teaching and example of Christ; a member of a Christian church. 2. One of a nation of which Christianity is the prevailing religion. 3. (Colloq.) A converted person; a professor of religion. 4. (Colloq). (1) A civilized person as opposed to a savage; as, the food isn't fit for a Christian. 

In the Bible, we read: "the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26.) After that point, there was never a time when there weren't Christians. The traditional teaching of the LDS Prophets runs counter to the Biblical identity of Christ. I believe in the Biblical version, while, doctrinally, you accept the mortal body of Jesus, if you follow LDS teachings.

3. Neither of us are Christians.

            I claim to be a Christian. You claim to be a Christian. This one fails a logical test.

4. I am a Christian and you are not.

When I was taking priesthood lessons, I was taught that the Word of the Prophet was truth. Unless my priesthood manual was wrong, I read where President Joseph Fielding Smith stated:

"Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false..." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 pp 188-189.)

This was probably one of the biggest problems I had while searching for the truth. I just couldn't believe that God would appoint a mortal as the gatekeeper of His kingdom. I began to explore the history of the person of Joseph Smith through his word and the words of those who knew him. I approached this search for the truth in a totally unbiased manner. Following the history of the Prophet, I read that "..Joseph, Jr. was to set his own mark in the world in a series of bold and visionary declarations. He was to claim that in the spring of 1820, he retired to a grove of trees near his home in Manchester, New York.

"There he sought the Word of the Lord concerning which church he should join of all those experiencing revival. He later testified that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared before him in a pillar of light, above the brightness of the sun. This became one of the most important events in all of Mormon history, the day that God the Father and Jesus Christ came down, in the flesh, and told Joseph Smith that the churches were all wrong and that, in effect, Christianity was totally lost."[1]

"When the Light rested upon me I saw two personages ... one of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other, "This is My beloved Son, hear Him!" I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light which of all the sects was right and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong ... all their creeds were an abomination in His sight, that those professors were all corrupt."[2]

If we accept Joseph Smith's vision, we must immediately conclude the Christian church in the 1830s was in very deep trouble. Doctrinally, these are the same churches that exist today. While non-LDS may doubt the authenticity of Joseph Smith's statements, several very solid facts remain.

First, it is the basic Mormon belief that God finds the Christian worship of Him unacceptable and even loathsome[3] according to Smith's account.

Second, the Mormon belief that Christianity (as it remains) is lost, irrevocably separates Mormonism and Christianity[4] if we are to believe that same account.

Third, there is no way that both can be right. The claims of the LDC Church being the "Restored" church necessarily exclude all other religions.

The foregoing description of God's appearance to Joseph Smith is noteworthy beyond his expressed displeasure with Christianity. Far more critical is his statement that God the Father and Jesus Christ both appeared before him separately, side by side, and in the flesh. This is critical because it immediately separates Mormonism and Christianity in regard to the nature of God. John, in his gospel, writes: No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. (John 6:46). It would be stretching the facts to the breaking point to suppose that John was talking about Joseph Smith. As if to reiterate this statement, and answer the Mormon that might suppose that he was, if fact, speaking of Joseph, he repeats it in I John 4:12 to rule out all mortals (No man hath seen God at any time). And God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24)

An LDS Apostle once wrote: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness." Orson Pratt.[5]

That obviously includes CHRISTIANS, (my emphasis) and apparently anything but the LDS Church. Ask any Mormon if they believe anyone who has openly rejected Mormon teachings will ever be resurrected to the highest of the three levels of "salvation?"

"It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol (sic); it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."-- 4th Prophet, John Taylor[6]

I'm sure this basic premise has carried over to the 20^th and 21^st centuries. Nothing in any Mormon writings have indicated that Christianity has been "rehabilitated."

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers."[7]  --Brigham Young

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." Apostle Bruce R. McConkie[8]

Both of these statements conflict 180º from all but early Gnostic teachings. Early Christianity survived intact well before the Luther Reformation. For the past four centuries, Christians have adhered to the Virgin birth of Christ. The only basic conflict between the different Christian "flavors" is the status of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"Mormonism is the one and only completely true and officially recognized religion by the Lord,[9]" according to a First Council of the Seventy.

"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." --Bruce McConkie^[10]

The Mormon Church "…is the true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased.. "--Doctrine and Covenants 1:30

I presume that you acknowledge me as a Christian.  You may even concede that the churches that exist in our communities are "Christian" churches. However, regardless of your personal beliefs, I have listed the statements made by LDS prophets and apostles which obviously indicate that they have separated themselves and their church from Christianity. Nothing we say today will remove their preaching from the written record.

If you are able to reconcile the practices of the LDS Church with the written word of the prophets and apostles, you are to be recognized as a truly faithful LDS. I couldn't reconcile the differences, therefore I asked to have my name removed from the LDS roles, with no stigma attached.

Johnny, I have spoken with knowledgeable Mormons on these same subjects. I have absolutely no desire to debate these questions. Neither do I choose to establish an ongoing discussion. My purpose was to correct editorially-directed issues. I will continue to respond to anyone who makes statements of doctrinal incorrectness to the public. And now, you have again responded in the editorial column. I had assumed that you were eager to strike a dialogue with me rather than appealing to the emotion of the editorial page.

Cordially, Derick

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